brandon4455
thats a beauty mike..the river itself is also beautiful. thanks for sharing
Save the native Umpqua steel
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plumb2fish
Those pics are exactly the kind of experience I want to be able to pass on to my kids and grandkids(no Mike there are none on the way yet)
jamisonace
The truly effective steelheaders aren't fishing with the guides and if a guides guest wants to take a huge steelhead home, the guide will accomodate to the best of his ability. This is all just speculation and opinion but I'd bet I'm right. Off topic.....Brandon, go up to Steamboat Creek later in the season and see hundreds of nates sitting in the pool (google it if you want to see it online) waiting for fall rains to allow them to get up the river to spawn. It's an amazing site for a person that really appreciates nates the way you do.
halibuthitman said:
T
Throbbit _Shane
plumb2fish said:
Yes I'm not like most fisherman.
plumb2fish said:
I'm one of a kind, and very different! I dont strictly fish for salmon/steelhead. I fish for bass, carp, kokanne, all types of trouts, panfish, ocean fish, and salmon, steelhead. The tug is what im after and a willing biter, i dont care what kind of fish it is.
You have a lot of experience with people paying to fish? Do you know lots of guides? It seems your logic is flawed too. I know Andy Martin a guide on the Chetco River, highly recommends to his customers that they release the huge kings and steelhead they catch on that great river. I know other guides that suggest releasing wild fish too. You may think every paying customer guides have will bonk any legal fish they catch, is just not right. Most clients guides have are repeat customers and are skilled, well informed and knowledgeable about our fisheries.
ps. i dont care about the rep points either, but if it didn't bother you why did you bring it up?
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Throbbit _Shane
jamisonace said:
What about the effective steelheaders that got to old to row there drift boats? or to walk up and down the banks? come one guys... this isn't about guides vs non guides. or is it?
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plumb2fish
The fact is that most people that pay to fish in Oregon want to taje a fish home. I know there are plenty of great guides out there,such as Andy, that do really care about the rescource, but all they can do is suggest that you don't keep your fish....to tell people they can't would be bad for business.....and you can bet there aren't any guides in that area that would flat out deny people the opportunity to keep a "LEGAL" fish....whether ethically right or not.
By the way Shane. I appologise for singleing you out. I had no right to bash anyone on a personal level.I am very passionate and didh't think before I hit send about what my words may do to another angler.
By the way Shane. I appologise for singleing you out. I had no right to bash anyone on a personal level.I am very passionate and didh't think before I hit send about what my words may do to another angler.
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Throbbit _Shane
I accept your apology, i did get kind of worked up though, as you can probably tell. Its all good, I went to the store and got some ice cream so i can chill out 
S
spoonman
The Umpqua is the most amazing stealhead fishing I have ever experienced in my life, and I fancy myself a damn fine fishermen who has fished many great rivers and streams. On two occasions this year my father and I went out and caught 17 fish on a Tuesday and 19 the following day drifting eggs from a drift boat. Out of the 35+ fish landed over the course of two days not one was a hatchery fish. My pops is old and has bad rheumatoid arthritis, one day soon he wont be able to reel, so having a place where we can get that kind of action over the course of a few days is priceless. I say let the wild fish be, there are so many river and streams where you can harvest fish, lets lets this world class fishery stay that way! IMHO!
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BobbiDollPDX
I love these threads. It's like going to church. Preach!
brandon4455
so,say if retention was allowed and on estimate anywhere from 500-5,000 wild fish were harvested (just a guess here )
i was told the run is usually 8-9,000 fish. im pretty sure even 500 fish out of that would be a big enough chunk to do some damage. these are naturally produced steelhead not hatchery fish.
i just don't understand why so many people are ungrateful and hatchery steelhead are not enough. it doesn't make sense.
especially when they know it ill have a negative impact
i was told the run is usually 8-9,000 fish. im pretty sure even 500 fish out of that would be a big enough chunk to do some damage. these are naturally produced steelhead not hatchery fish.
i just don't understand why so many people are ungrateful and hatchery steelhead are not enough. it doesn't make sense.
especially when they know it ill have a negative impact
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Throbbit _Shane
This is fishing Brandon, not fish hugging. If you want to save the steelhead and other fish perhaps you should try to stop people from fishing completely on all of these rivers and streams. Mortality is part of the game, if you dont like it I suggest looking for a different sport.
People arnt unethical and ungrateful if they keep a fish, they are probably enjoying it more then you would have by eating it. Perhaps you should look at your self, you think stomping up and down tiny streams and stressing out tiny cutthroats is doing them any good? In the summer months those fish can't take the stress that well and im sure some go belly up after the release. I'm not trying to bash you but you gotta look at things more then just from one side of the fence.
People arnt unethical and ungrateful if they keep a fish, they are probably enjoying it more then you would have by eating it. Perhaps you should look at your self, you think stomping up and down tiny streams and stressing out tiny cutthroats is doing them any good? In the summer months those fish can't take the stress that well and im sure some go belly up after the release. I'm not trying to bash you but you gotta look at things more then just from one side of the fence.
brandon4455
im done with this debate if your gunna take personal shots and act like a 12 year old shane.
mortality rate of trout with single barbless hooks is really low and the stream i catch them in maintains a temp in the upper 50's throughout the summer,so think before you post, you dont know a single thing about the place i fish. the only time mortality rate jumps up in the summer is when the temp of a stream goes up from the heat and in that case i wouldnt fish it.
mortality rate of trout with single barbless hooks is really low and the stream i catch them in maintains a temp in the upper 50's throughout the summer,so think before you post, you dont know a single thing about the place i fish. the only time mortality rate jumps up in the summer is when the temp of a stream goes up from the heat and in that case i wouldnt fish it.
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Modest_Man
brandon4455 said:
How do you know it will have a negative impact? Honest question. Seems like you're making assumptions. Here's some more from the linked-to-proposed changes, that provides evidence that there will not be a negative impact.
"To look at the populations I used a student’s t-test to compare the number of wild STW crossing Winchester Dam while there was a 1/5 harvest (2000/01 – 2006/07) to the number of wild STW when the harvest was closed 2007/08 – 2010/11). There was no significant difference in the number of wild STW crossing the dam (P = 0.629, SD 2138.45 during harvest years, SD 996.55 non-harvest years). During 2004/05 through 2006/07 the Main stem was open to harvest in addition to the harvest on the North. With an ANOVA, the years when both the Main and North were open to harvest, had the highest significance level (P = .084). When both rivers were open, the Winchester Dam counts did stay above intrinsic productivity needs (1,664 to 5,757 returning adults) noted in the 2004 BA of Impacts to Wild Winter Steelhead from the Recreational Fishery report. When the Main was open to a 1 and 5 harvest, from 49% to 66% of the wild STW harvested were harvested from the Mainstem. Wild STW counts across Winchester Dam from 1990 – 1998 were relatively low when both the Main and the North were open to a 2 per day, 20 per year wild STW harvest. Under this regime there were years when less 5,757 wild adults returned. However, during the last 10 years the average wild counts have been 8,723."
From 2000 to 2007 there were an average of 8,504 wild fish across the dam each year, when harvest was allowed.
From 2007 to 2011 there were an average of 8,979 wild fish across the dam each year, when harvest was not allowed.
Lean up on some population dynamics Brandon. It's not so simple that 8,000 wild fish - 500 fish = 7,500 returning down the road. Populations have different growth rates under different densities.
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Spydeyrch
jamisonace said:
I looked it up. Here is the picture and the info I found:
Steam Boat Creek
Very cool!!!!
:shock: :clap: :dance:-Spydey
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fishinshawn
There was a several year period when the 1 in 5 rule was in place on the umpqua. Judging from the current populations 13,700 winter steelhead over the dam it did not hurt the population much. If the concern is merely guides, then you could make a rule similar to another river that doesn't allow angling from a water craft.
As far as guides and retention goes...well Lyle Andrews and Gary Lewis got the steamboaters together to get ODFW to get rid of the 1 in 5 rule on the umpqua. He told me it was because even though some guides encouraged catch and release that others encouraged retention. The guides that encouraged catch and release were to afraid to loose business to flat out tell customers they are catch and release only. So the story goes, that often times late in the winter season the umpqua becomes the only river producing fish, so the guides tend to hammer it really bad. They were afraid the population would suffer. I am told now that both guides regret their decision.
I would be in favor of the 1 in 5 rule, only if they set a slot limit and had minimum escapement numbers, with all participates required to report daily catches. I would not be in favor of the old style 1 in 5 where it was left open all season, where a theoretically unlimited number of wild fish could be harvested. The reality is no one is really wrong in this thread. The goal of ODFW is to manage the streams to a point where hatchery fish are not needed to supplement harvest for wild runs. The Umpqua has what is most likely the healthiest run of wild steelhead in the state, and could scientifically withstand some harvest. It's been shown time and time again that when left alone people will over harvest all populations of fish, and in this case I would be rather be safe then sorry. Safe gaurding our rather limited wild populations is important. Without a healthy wild population, healthy hatchery fish are very hard to create, so it benefits everyone that we maintain certain healthy population levels where they exist.
Brandon-
Do you enjoy the taste of fish? The beauty you see in in wild fish others see in deer or elk, or heck even cows or ducks and geese. The public has a right to access public resources. It is quite challenging to manage public resources for all user groups, in this case there is a spirited debate between c&r and harvest folks. It appears to be against your morals to harvest a wild fish, there is nothing wrong with your view point. You should however not try so hard to push your morals off on other people. It tends to alienate them, and make them shut down. Instead look to see if there is a scientifically valid concern, and work from there. If there isn't and you have calmly made your views clear, I'd suggest letting it go, educating when you can, and just enjoy your own feelings of satisfaction when you catch and release a fish.
As far as guides and retention goes...well Lyle Andrews and Gary Lewis got the steamboaters together to get ODFW to get rid of the 1 in 5 rule on the umpqua. He told me it was because even though some guides encouraged catch and release that others encouraged retention. The guides that encouraged catch and release were to afraid to loose business to flat out tell customers they are catch and release only. So the story goes, that often times late in the winter season the umpqua becomes the only river producing fish, so the guides tend to hammer it really bad. They were afraid the population would suffer. I am told now that both guides regret their decision.
I would be in favor of the 1 in 5 rule, only if they set a slot limit and had minimum escapement numbers, with all participates required to report daily catches. I would not be in favor of the old style 1 in 5 where it was left open all season, where a theoretically unlimited number of wild fish could be harvested. The reality is no one is really wrong in this thread. The goal of ODFW is to manage the streams to a point where hatchery fish are not needed to supplement harvest for wild runs. The Umpqua has what is most likely the healthiest run of wild steelhead in the state, and could scientifically withstand some harvest. It's been shown time and time again that when left alone people will over harvest all populations of fish, and in this case I would be rather be safe then sorry. Safe gaurding our rather limited wild populations is important. Without a healthy wild population, healthy hatchery fish are very hard to create, so it benefits everyone that we maintain certain healthy population levels where they exist.
Brandon-
Do you enjoy the taste of fish? The beauty you see in in wild fish others see in deer or elk, or heck even cows or ducks and geese. The public has a right to access public resources. It is quite challenging to manage public resources for all user groups, in this case there is a spirited debate between c&r and harvest folks. It appears to be against your morals to harvest a wild fish, there is nothing wrong with your view point. You should however not try so hard to push your morals off on other people. It tends to alienate them, and make them shut down. Instead look to see if there is a scientifically valid concern, and work from there. If there isn't and you have calmly made your views clear, I'd suggest letting it go, educating when you can, and just enjoy your own feelings of satisfaction when you catch and release a fish.
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steelhead1
Word
plumb2fish said:
E
eat, sleep, fish
The decision should be based solely on biology, and not someones personal feelings or beliefs. Why should we care more about steelhead than salmon? If the river can support the limited harvest, then it should be open. If it can't, then keep it to hatchery fish only. We should want all streams to rebound to a point where harvest is allowed of wild fish.
The 1 & 5 is a start towards limiting the harvest, but to truly limit it, a quota needs to be put in place. The 1 & 5 really has no bearing on the amount of fish harvested by guides. Clients are always going to want to take home any fish they can. Yes there are the rare occasions where the guide can talk them into releasing one, but if legal, the majority of people will bonk anything they can.
The 1 & 5 is a start towards limiting the harvest, but to truly limit it, a quota needs to be put in place. The 1 & 5 really has no bearing on the amount of fish harvested by guides. Clients are always going to want to take home any fish they can. Yes there are the rare occasions where the guide can talk them into releasing one, but if legal, the majority of people will bonk anything they can.
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steelhead1
I agree. If you never stop to contemplate the harm you are doing to the fish themselves,you(not directed at any particular one) are probably a psychopath,and incapable of emotion or empathy. That being said, I dont have an ounce of confidence in ODFW's ability to manage their way out of a wet paper bag,let alone one of Oregon's most prolific steelhead runs. Keep it C&R,there are plenty of other rivers that offer the chance to harvest a clipper. Ya,mortality is a part of fishing,but, a dead fish left in the water WILL NOT be wasted,just because a FISHERMAN wasn't the one to turn it into poo....Throbbit _Shane said:
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brandon4455
i know mortality is a part of fishing i dont know why people keep going on about that crap im not a retard. it's greedy people wanting to bonk natives when there are plenty hatchery fish around that doesn't make any sense to me.
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steelhead1
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