Are all native fish for real?

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OnTheFly

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I recently had a discussion about hatchery grown salmon and was told that not every fish released were fin clipped; only about one out of ten. Does anyone know this for sure?
 
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osmosis

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Most hatchery fall chinook are not clipped. I'd say less than one out of 10 that head up the columbia to the tribs..
Now a majority of steelhead that are reared in say the clackamas are clipped, only a few are missed.

The natives have hatcheries too, and they do not clip most of their fish - why would they waste the time they get to keep them clipped or not.
 
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halibuthitman

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depends on the hatchery, but yes its true.. but the ratio is much less most hatcherys clip at least 50%- 75% and the numbers are determend by a 5 yr curve on returns... you didn't really think all those uncliped fish were actual natives did you! ;) if you count how many nooks you have caught that were native compared to enhanced fish... the natives would seem to outnumber them 3 to 1!
 
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halibuthitman

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sorry on the fly, correction, got my numbers reversed, 50%- 75% go unclipped.. I need to slow down typing.:shock:








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bigdog

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Witch all said makes perfect sence. I mean why would a nate fish hang out at a place such as cedar creek waiting for the water to raise to go in to a fish hatch if they were hatched in the wild?:think:
With that being said then what the hell is wrong with this picture?:naughty: Don't the funds we pay for tags and all go to funding the hatchiers and then they don't clip half or more of the fish and that lowers the numbers of fish we can keep beings we can't keep "native fish". Sad thing is there is most likely nothing we can do or say about this to make a difference.:mad:
 
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OnTheFly

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Granted it would be quite the undertaking to clip every single smolt in the pond then the cost to do it would be up there as well. And I suppose they still can make somewhat accurate counts since all fish return to their home waters each year. The problem I have with the whole thing is how do we know how many natural fish are in there. Do they arrive in a different month? Thanks for the input guys, I'm just trying to get more of an understanding about fish managment.
 
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halibuthitman

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well not to side with the state, but its all in dead reckoning biology. The survival rate of a smolt is very low, and the survival rate of an adult is just about as bad... at sea poaching ( drift nets ) sea lions, loss of habitat, low water conditions, flooding, orca whales, creek robbing, sport poaching and invasive disease brought about by canadian salmon farms kill the majority of salmon before they even reach their home water. The key word in all of this is "escapement" the number of fish that make it back to spawn. And they are never sure what that number might be until runs begins, or fails so the trick is have far more fish than ever require to sustain the run for the futer, and us sport fishermen mean nothing to the bioligest who decide this. The fake natives are insurance, a fish with a slightly better average or chance of making it, how many fish have you seen leave a river that were not clipped? even if you have seen none, the answer is a lot. I have seen 3 busts in 2 hours at just the st helens launch, how many snaggers you see in a season? biologist are simply hedging the odds in the runs favor... we should appreciate this kind of managment.... I do:)
 
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mlw

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They say salmon runs are 6% of what they were historically (before dams, development) - imagine what the fishing used to be like! When I was a kid in Tillamook the old timers used to talk about pulling 40+ lb chinook out of the fence wire after a flood - days long gone. The best way to help our local trout, steelhead and salmon is to let more salmon die in the river, the nutrients from the salmon carcasses are unique in that they are from the ocean, and stimulate insect life necessary for all the young fish.
Michael
 
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Thuggin4Life

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Here's another thought. Not all clipped fish spawn back at the hatchery. A few go elsewhere making there offspring all "natives".
 
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Mike123

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Here's another thought. Not all clipped fish spawn back at the hatchery. A few go elsewhere making there offspring all "natives".

Yup.. I'd say more so in some rivers than others. Like rivers that aren't dammed probably get more of this since the hatchery fish don't have to stop at the fish hatchery trap. That would make sense to me anyways.
 
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halibuthitman

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3 yrs ago pillar creek on kodiak island alaska had 800-900 kings return to it, funny thing is... the creek has NEVER had a king run! 10-15% of native kings miss their home river and spawn in a different system... even more in second cycle fish.
 
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OnTheFly

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3 yrs ago pillar creek on kodiak island alaska had 800-900 kings return to it, funny thing is... the creek has NEVER had a king run! 10-15% of native kings miss their home river and spawn in a different system... even more in second cycle fish.

I wonder why there has been so much controversy regarding hatchery fish with diseases and weaker fish in the gene pool. Sounds to me the runs are being built up or in the very least preserved.
 
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Kodiak

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the santiams are all "naitive stock" fish. They have been pulled from naitives and spawned in the hatchery. The federal mandate is that they must clip at least 70%. But some adiposes grow back to nearly full size depending on the age of the fish at clip time, some get missed and some just get sent through the system so somebody can collect a paycheck. A few years back about 30% of the smolt escaped into the river somehow at the south fork hatchery, and ever since they have had a decent return of wild fish. They know naturally that the north fork santiam will only hold 4500 returning adults in its natural condition, on a good year. The numbers that we see are greatley enhanced and what the old timers say is a load of B.S....On the runs above the willamette when guys look at you and say they could walk across the river on the backs of the wild fish they are so full of it thier eyes are brown. Salmon above willamette falls were not clipped until the early 90's. Cosidring the cross breeding that went on between naitive and wild fish up here, it is safe to say there are no "wild fish" above willamette falls, including winter steelhead.
 
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OnTheFly

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With that said Kodiak, then the answer to the opening title of this thread is 'No'. How can anyone be sure a fish is native or not? Perhaps Ninja should have kept the 'Adipose Intact' Nook he caught in the Sandy the other day.
 
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osmosis

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That "adipose intact" fish is a mid sandy basin spawning TULE and they have not planted tule in that river to interfere with that gene pool. sure some may have strayed since fish are good at wandering - but that fish is about as close to "wild" as we have left in an over fished hatchery dominant river..
 
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OnTheFly

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That "adipose intact" fish is a mid sandy basin spawning TULE and they have not planted tule in that river to interfere with that gene pool. sure some may have strayed since fish are good at wandering - but that fish is about as close to "wild" as we have left in an over fished hatchery dominant river..

Thanks for the clarification Alan. I'm pleased to know that there are still wild fish around but just not as many as I thought. Now that I have been informed about hatchery fish being released unclipped I'm not sure what I'm catching now. I guess a little more research on my part on hatcheries in a particular river system may give me more of an understanding of what the heck's going on here.
 
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halibuthitman

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I like fishing the trask and the wilson just for this "wild fish" reason... but don't get down in the craw or caught up in the native/hatchery mindset.... any fish is a good fish... but if its 35-40lbs and tears half the bearings out of your reel with 3 blazing runs, it just might be a nate. I have always been astonished by the amount of respect a nate seems to recieve, I have fished 7 major steelhead runs that are all native with no hatchery fish just this year, and with the exeption of size..... I can find no difference in fight or taste from an oregon hatchery steel. but mabey I was just to dang cold to notice;)
 
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