2022 license

jamisonace
jamisonace
shiverfix said:
But I am paying for a service. I am paying for stocking, rules enforcement, rescue, etc... Yes, we could go around and around all day about if the money is being managed well or not, that is not an argument I am going to get into because I don't know the history of ODFW well enough to speak to it. But without stocking and regulation, there wouldn't be any fish to catch anymore. And I do pay for clean air and water, through my taxes, which are used to enforce regulations that keep people and industry from dumping pollution and waste into the air and water. Again, we could argue about the way it is being managed, but without pollution regulation we literally had rivers catching fire in this country.
I won't disagree with you on anything here. My original post was calling into question why it's silly (your words) to compare how states manage their wildlife but not silly to compare paying for fishing to paying for a blazers game. That's it. That's all I was saying. I find it much less relevant to compare that latter.

I fully agree that regulation and stocking help our fisheries. My guess is however, that ODFW is another bloated government bureaucracy that doesn't need as much money as it takes in.
 
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shiverfix
I agree as well, I'm sure there is waste in the bureaucracy. Heck, I've worked in senior management for private business for years (going on a couple decades) and the amount of waste I see there is ridiculous, and that directly affects a bottom line. I try to balance between trusting the people who are experts (biologists who have spent years getting education and experience in their field), but also expecting accountability on costs and decisions. And unfortunately when you try and please everyone you generally please no one. Kinda like the old Bayliner ski and fish I have, it tries to be a boat that does everything, and does none of it well ;)
 
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Admin
Admin
Some info from the other side of the Earth. )
Here in Ukraine we don't have a fishing license so we don't have to pay for fishing. We do have fishing regulations and limits (size of species that can be kept, total weight of catch, etc). We have a prohibited period during spawn season. There are hatcheries that add fish to rivers. But it all covered from the country budget. All the people cover it by their taxes. And that makes sense - why only anglers have to pay for keeping rivers healthy?

And another thought. I remember watching a video about destroying dam (don't remember in what state) and the next year salmon was spawning up the river. It was something like 70 years that fish can't go up, many fish generations changed, and no fish could "remember the path home". But it took just a blink for fish to fill the water. What I want to say - there is no need to "manage" environment. All we need to do is just not destroying it. I guess. )
 
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jamisonace
jamisonace
shiverfix said:
I agree as well, I'm sure there is waste in the bureaucracy. Heck, I've worked in senior management for private business for years (going on a couple decades) and the amount of waste I see there is ridiculous, and that directly affects a bottom line. I try to balance between trusting the people who are experts (biologists who have spent years getting education and experience in their field), but also expecting accountability on costs and decisions. And unfortunately when you try and please everyone you generally please no one. Kinda like the old Bayliner ski and fish I have, it tries to be a boat that does everything, and does none of it well ;)
I'll blame it on being sick for the last week but I did to you what I hate people doing on this forum....picking out one little irrelevant aspect of a post and making it into something bigger than it is. My bad.
 
S
shiverfix
Admin said:
Some info from the other side of the Earth. )
Here in Ukraine we don't have a fishing license so we don't have to pay for fishing. We do have fishing regulations and limits (size of species that can be kept, total weight of catch, etc). We have a prohibited period during spawn season. There are hatcheries that add fish to rivers. But it all covered from the country budget. All the people cover it by their taxes. And that makes sense - why only anglers have to pay for keeping rivers healthy?

And another thought. I remember watching a video about destroying dam (don't remember in what state) and the next year salmon was spawning up the river. It was something like 70 years that fish can't go up, many fish generations changed, and no fish could "remember the path home". But it took just a blink for fish to fill the water. What I want to say - there is no need to "manage" environment. All we need to do is just not destroying it. I guess. )
The problem is (and this is coming from someone who agrees with you) we have to manage it, because we have altered it so much. We have to manage deer and elk populations because the predators are gone (or have reduced numbers). We have to manage stocked fish populations (like the pike on Colorado's western slope) because they are destroying the native fish populations. We have to build fish ladders to go around the dams we built. We have to dredge the Mississippi because we create a channel... Etc ad nauseum...
 
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shiverfix
jamisonace said:
I'll blame it on being sick for the last week but I did to you what I hate people doing on this forum....picking out one little irrelevant aspect of a post and making it into something bigger than it is. My bad.
No worries, I wasn't offended. At the end of the day what we all want is to go fishing! ;)
 
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troutdude
troutdude
jamisonace said:
I'm always happy to pay higher prices for better quality. More expensive camping means less crowds and better amenities as an example. In this case more expensive fishing doesn't mean better fishing. I know you're not a steelheader but we are in our 2nd year in a row of the worst steelhead fishing this state has ever seen. I would expect better for the high licensing costs.
BINGO!!! I just looked at the cost, last weekend, to get my license and 2 rod endorsement. I'd swear that I got both last year, for the price of just the basic license this year. And I already know that the fishing will be NO better than it has been in the past!
 
Admin
Admin
shiverfix said:
we have to manage it, because we have altered it so much
that was my point (my English is sooo rusty...)
the less we alter (read destroy) it, the les we'll have to "manage it".
 
S
shiverfix
We pay higher prices for all kinds of things that didn't improve, and never complain about it (at least not directly, maybe when we complain about inflation). For example, a Big Mac cost $2.39 in 2000, $4.29 in 2010, and $4.95 today (depending on what market you are in). Yet we still buy them, even with 107% price increase over 20 years, with no value difference (the Big Mac is the Big Mac).
 
Admin
Admin
shiverfix said:
a Big Mac cost $2.39 in 2000, $4.29 in 2010, and $4.95 today
Greed. The third of the seven. )
 
DOKF
DOKF
How did your pay change over the same time period? Disposable income?
 
DOKF
DOKF
Mine, not so well ...

I think I had more disposable income in my 20's.

But then, no house, kids, cars, motorhome, boats ....
 
DOKF
DOKF
And I no longer crave a Big Mac with fries.
 
jamisonace
jamisonace
shiverfix said:
We pay higher prices for all kinds of things that didn't improve, and never complain about it (at least not directly, maybe when we complain about inflation). For example, a Big Mac cost $2.39 in 2000, $4.29 in 2010, and $4.95 today (depending on what market you are in). Yet we still buy them, even with 107% price increase over 20 years, with no value difference (the Big Mac is the Big Mac).
I was going to comment that you are comparing an artificial government price increase to a private business responding to market pressure but I realized that is not the case here. Both prices are being artificially increased. One because state government decided to and the other because state government doubled the minimum wage and McDonalds had no other option.

We generally don't complain about inflationary rates of price increase but I see people complaining all the time now because inflation is 3x what it was pre Biden. I know that fishing license prices have stabilized a bit in the last couple years but there were a few years that the prices were being raised by double digits every year.

It is amazing how addicted we are to McDonalds which produces the worst food in the universe but I digress.
 
jamisonace
jamisonace
DOKF said:
How did your pay change over the same time period? Disposable income?
I was riding high in the 2000's. Then the recession took 20% of my income almost immediately and kept falling from there. I definitely don't feel as comfortable today as I once did. I do spend a lot more money on fishing today though so I only have myself to blame.
 
Shaun Solomon
Shaun Solomon
jamisonace said:
I know you're not a steelheader but we are in our 2nd year in a row of the worst steelhead fishing this state has ever seen.

I have never met a species I wasn’t intrigued by or a method I didn’t find interesting. I would love to chase those fish but I don’t think now is necessarily the time. It might never be the time, but hopefully things will get to the point where I could feel ok about chasing them. I’ll probably take a trip at some point just to add them to my life-list…

I also see where Shiverfix is coming from. I guess most people seem pretty reasonable, which makes the fierce contention we are encountering over every little thing in the country pretty hard to understand.

But I guess most things are hard for me to understand.
 
Shaun Solomon
Shaun Solomon
Also Jamisonace, let’s go Brandon?

I’m definitely not an economist, but I suspect longitudinal trends that predate the current administration may have had some minor effects on the economy.
 
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jamisonace
jamisonace
Shaun Solomon said:
Also Jamisonace, let’s go Brandon?

I’m definitely not an economist, but I suspect longitudinal trends that predate the current administration may have had some minor effects on the economy.
Possibly....and yes....FJB and the horse he rode in on.
 
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shiverfix
jamisonace said:
I was going to comment that you are comparing an artificial government price increase to a private business responding to market pressure but I realized that is not the case here. Both prices are being artificially increased. One because state government decided to and the other because state government doubled the minimum wage and McDonalds had no other option.

We generally don't complain about inflationary rates of price increase but I see people complaining all the time now because inflation is 3x what it was pre Biden. I know that fishing license prices have stabilized a bit in the last couple years but there were a few years that the prices were being raised by double digits every year.

It is amazing how addicted we are to McDonalds which produces the worst food in the universe but I digress.

Even government programs are subject to the same market pressures as private business. I don't know all of the costs involved in raising fish and rule enforcement, but we can make some assumptions here. For example, it takes electricity, fish food, and labor to run a hatchery. I'm sure the costs of all increase year over year (as pretty much all commodities do). Plus the cost of maintenance, capital upgrades, etc... For enforcement, they have upkeep and capital upgrades as well, and I'm sure that rangers get raises, so the cost of labor would increase year over year, as it does for pretty much all companies, regardless of minimum wage. The longer an employee is with an employer, the more money they expect to make (up to a certain threshold). As I was writing this, it dawned on me that since it is a governmental department, you can see the budget any time, I found the link (below).

https://www.dfw.state.or.us/agency/budget/archive.asp
 
jamisonace
jamisonace
shiverfix said:
Even government programs are subject to the same market pressures as private business. I don't know all of the costs involved in raising fish and rule enforcement, but we can make some assumptions here. For example, it takes electricity, fish food, and labor to run a hatchery. I'm sure the costs of all increase year over year (as pretty much all commodities do). Plus the cost of maintenance, capital upgrades, etc... For enforcement, they have upkeep and capital upgrades as well, and I'm sure that rangers get raises, so the cost of labor would increase year over year, as it does for pretty much all companies, regardless of minimum wage. The longer an employee is with an employer, the more money they expect to make (up to a certain threshold). As I was writing this, it dawned on me that since it is a governmental department, you can see the budget any time, I found the link (below).

https://www.dfw.state.or.us/agency/budget/archive.asp
My point was that you cannot buy a fishing license from anyone but the government so their price increases have nothing to do with demand (and only sometimes have to do with production cost increases). If you want to fish, you pay the money. There is no other option. That is why license costs outpaced inflation significantly since around 2007 if I remember right.

Private companies like McDonalds can't do this or people find substitutes.

I've seen the budget and if I remember right its about 400 million each biennial...is that right? Going back to Admin's point about Ukraine.....yes Oregon could easily fit that into their budget. Take 300 million from the health.gov boondoggle or 300 million from the medicare payments that went to ineligible recipients and that would cover a few years just by hiring competent people that didn't waste hundreds of millions of dollars on mistakes. But there is no accountability in government so it goes on.
 

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