Sandy River law suit update

Irishrover
Irishrover
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Yester day Judge Ancer Haggerty a Federal judge in Portland ruled that NOAA and ODF&W plans to release smolts into the Sandy River violated the ESA. The plantiffs were the Native Fish Society and some fly fishing group out of the Eugene area. The judge did not stop hatchery operations on the Sandy. He ordered that the two side sit down and work something out that would comply with the ESA. The Judge wanted an answer by January 22, 2014. There are several things that can happen. One they sit down and work it out. Two NOAA and ODF&W appeal the ruling and ask a higher court for a stay of the Judges ruling. Three they don't work it out and the Judges works it out for them. Four who ever doesn't like the judges ruling appeals. Now I would like to plead with folks here not to get crazy, lets see what happens. This Judge is a very stand up guy.

Judge Haggerty has received numerous awards for his service in the United States Marine Corps. He was awarded the National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnamese Service Medal, the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry, a Combat Action Ribbon, a Purple Heart and a Silver Star. The story behind his award is nothing but pure heroics.
 
“It is undisputed that hatchery operations can pose a host of risks to wild fish…it is clear that the Sandy River Basin is of particular importance to the recovery of the four [Endangered Species Act] listed species and is an ecologically critical area,” the judge wrote.

He's got my vote.
 
Here is his full decision. It looks like NOAA , NMFS, ODF&W need to go back and dot a few i's and cross a few t's. I had to read it a few times and take notes. It didn't really resolve much it was more about rulings on summary judgements. The parties involved still have to sit down and work something out. January 22 will be an interesting day. He never addressed the honey badger effect though!
 
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This ruling could have huge ramifications going forward for hatchery operations.

Thanks for posting it here, Irish,

Best,
 
eugene1 said:
This ruling could have huge ramifications going forward for hatchery operations.

Thanks for posting it here, Irish,

Best,
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Luckily it won't affect most streams in Oregon that don't flow into the Columbia. Steelhead aren't listed in any of the coastal streams so there is nothing the NFS can file suit against on those hatcheries.

OnTheFly said:
“It is undisputed that hatchery operations can pose a host of risks to wild fish…it is clear that the Sandy River Basin is of particular importance to the recovery of the four [Endangered Species Act] listed species and is an ecologically critical area,” the judge wrote.

He's got my vote.
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If hatchery fish are really to blame, then why when looking at rivers where hatchery fish have been removed do we not see an uptick in wild populations? Why on Southern Oregon streams can hatchery steelhead mingle with wild fish, but the population of wild steelhead still be strong enough to support quite a bit of harvest?
 
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eat said:
If hatchery fish are really to blame, then why when looking at rivers where hatchery fish have been removed do we not see an uptick in wild populations? Why on Southern Oregon streams can hatchery steelhead mingle with wild fish, but the population of wild steelhead still be strong enough to support quite a bit of harvest?
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Between 1986 and 1991, between 2,000 and 7,750 Clack summers went above NF dam and the Clack wild population was between 800 and 1,750 for those same years.

Since 2000, and for the last 13 years, no hatchery steelhead can go above NF and the last few years of wild Clack steelhead numbers look like this:

2013 = 868
2012 = 1,249
2011 = 1,242

Can't you see? Isn't the impact obvious?
 
It's the four H's.

Habitat, Hydro, Harvest, and Hatcheries. People don't want to restore flood plains or allow flooding, they want cheap electricity, and they want to eat fish. That leaves hatcheries as the last and only variable that can be controlled.

I will say that there has been almost 150 years of federal and state government agencies that have violated law (blatantly) in regards to preserving salmon and steelhead runs. It's nice to see them held accountable (finally). If ODFW and NOAA had followed the law then the judge would have laughed at the NFS and tossed the lawsuit.
 
Modest_Man said:
That leaves hatcheries as the last and only variable that can be controlled.
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But the problem I see, is that yes, that particular variable can be controlled, but when the hatchery releases are eliminated, these types of figures tell us that it will ultimately have no effect on the wild population due to the other factors having an undue and greater influence in squelching their ability to rebound.
 
I say end the hatchery runs and close the sandy to any and all sport fishing in the entire watershed, putting a sonar wier in and let it ride for 5 years.. And raise the hatchery releases on the clack watershed to 180,000 fish with a five fish limit... Only the guides and property owners will complain.. And its those property owners that are one of the biggest parts of the problem. Lets give the science a chance. You cannot let people catch and release fish that are endangered in a recovering watershed since a caught fish is considered a dead fish, right?
 
halibuthitman said:
I say end the hatchery runs and close the sandy to any and all sport fishing in the entire watershed, putting a sonar wier in and let it ride for 5 years.. And raise the hatchery releases on the clack watershed to 180,000 fish with a five fish limit... Only the guides and property owners will complain.. And its those property owners that are one of the biggest parts of the problem. Lets give the science a chance. You cannot let people catch and release fish that are endangered in a recovering watershed since a caught fish is considered a dead fish, right?
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I don't think the science is necessarily wrong, but I'm skeptical of the claim that hatchery fish are a primary/key reason for wild stock declines due to the obvious weighty factors such as dams, urbanization, etc. I think your idea shows that you might also see what some of those other key factors are...you want the Sandy, a river with no dams and a slightly more rural route to be closed to hatchery releases and angling, while a more urban river, with several dams, gets substantial hatchery plants. To me, this makes some sense because the wild pop. on the Clack obviously suffers from something other than hatchery fish influences and halting hatchery releases does nothing, while the Sandy is nowadays much closer to its original free-flowing state and hatchery and angling halts may well contribute to a rebound.
 
Closing the hatchery on the Sandy is not going to happen. But lets just say it does for the sake of agrument. There are four fish that are on the ESA list. If the hatchery fish are gone and the non harchery fish remain it would violate section 9 of the ESA to fish for them.

"The ESA defines "take" to mean "harass, harm, pursue, hunt,
shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect, or to attempt to engage in any such conduct."

Without hatchery fish to target, the river would be a no fishing zone. But this is not going to happen. I believe that as this progresses the information that the Judge did not allow in, will eventually be allowed. The evidence wasn't allowed in due to strick federal rule of evidence and time lines. However after reading the the Judges Opinion and Order a few times, to get it figured out, I think NMFS and ODF&W can fix the errors and continue the broodstock program.
 
halibuthitman said:
I say end the hatchery runs and close the sandy to any and all sport fishing in the entire watershed, putting a sonar wier in and let it ride for 5 years.. And raise the hatchery releases on the clack watershed to 180,000 fish with a five fish limit... Only the guides and property owners will complain.. And its those property owners that are one of the biggest parts of the problem. Lets give the science a chance. You cannot let people catch and release fish that are endangered in a recovering watershed since a caught fish is considered a dead fish, right?
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The exception to this idea would be that folks who possess a pioneer fishing license would be allowed to fish the Sandy and from a floating device!
 
Modest_Man said:
It's the four H's.

Habitat, Hydro, Harvest, and Hatcheries. People don't want to restore flood plains or allow flooding, they want cheap electricity, and they want to eat fish. That leaves hatcheries as the last and only variable that can be controlled.
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+1

also: :popcorn:
 
ChezJfrey said:
Between 1986 and 1991, between 2,000 and 7,750 Clack summers went above NF dam and the Clack wild population was between 800 and 1,750 for those same years.

Since 2000, and for the last 13 years, no hatchery steelhead can go above NF and the last few years of wild Clack steelhead numbers look like this:

2013 = 868
2012 = 1,249
2011 = 1,242

Can't you see? Isn't the impact obvious?
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The impact is extremely obvious. Anglers lost a great fishery because of something that saw no benefit for wild fish.

When you look at real world case studies such as that, it's pretty obvious that hatcheries really don't have much of an impact as some would like us to think.
 
I think he is on a fund drive. That certainly is not what the Judge ruled. To find the truth it's just a matter of reading the Judges order. I think he need to spin it to build his organization.
 
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One things for certain, when lawyers and judges come in the door.. Science goes out the window, always-
 
halibuthitman said:
One things for certain, when lawyers and judges come in the door.. Science goes out the window, always-
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Along with common sense, logic and a lot of other things! It truly is another world.
 
I hope everyone realized if they remove all hatchery fish from any or all watersheds that there will be no angling for any species. The Umpqua for example, if all hatchery fish are removed that will end the sport fishery for everyone, fly anglers included. I don't think people realize this. There will be no catch and release for native fish as there should not be if they are so threatened. And if any of the Washington rivers who have removed hatchery fish decades ago are any indication of how well wild fish will thrive without hatchery fish the runs will not get better and fishing will never open back up. Until dams are removed, seals, birds and other predators are kept in check along with other major issues wild runs will never rebound. Hatchery fish are a very small issue in the whole picture. A lot of these rivers the wild fish are not wild at all considering most runs were wiped out with canneries and dams many years ago! The Sandy is a good example of this.
 
Here is a question? Why doesn't fish and game use hatch boxes and spawn wild steelhead and chinook and release them in all water sheds in Oregon. End hatchery clipped fish. Allow only catch and release for three years and then when those wild born fish begin to return with the other wild fish and start spawning maybe we could help rebound low wild fish returns and jump start their recovery. Leave it catch and release until the numbers are large enough to allow for harvest. Continue to supplement the wild fish with wild hatch boxes and flood all the rivers with fish. Everyone knows every river in Oregon can sustain much larger returns than they are getting now!
 
steelhead_stalkers said:
Everyone knows every river in Oregon can sustain much larger returns than they are getting now!
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Not without habitat restoration they can't.
 
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