E
eugene1
You're dead on, rog.
Best,
Best,
rogerdodger said:
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Info on decline of salmon
R
Rain
I just watched Salmon Confidential on youtube. Thank you for sharing, I had not seen it yet. It raises more questions than it answers. Though it did answer some very good questions. I hope Oregon, Washington, and the federal government will heed this information as a warning to the potential consequences of doing similar farming practices here. I know there is Atlantic salmon farms in Washington and biologists are finding diseases among those Washington farmed fish. The diseases found in those farms are said to be native, but experts worry that the clustering of nonnative Atlantic salmon in farm-fish net pens could amplify the pathogen and make it more virulent or cause it to mutate into something far more deadly for wild stocks.
The film was amateur to be sure and was rather unscientific at times. With all the silencing that goes around, I'm glad any film was made at all. Information like this shouldn't be kept secret. I'm left wondering why this one biologist is going to such great lengths that others are not. Surely there is a large concern on this subject. If more people were doing the work that Alexandra Morton is, and coming up with the same results she has, then her work would be undeniably more credible in the eyes of critics. It seems that discrediting somebody is the passive aggressive legal way of silencing somebody.
The film was amateur to be sure and was rather unscientific at times. With all the silencing that goes around, I'm glad any film was made at all. Information like this shouldn't be kept secret. I'm left wondering why this one biologist is going to such great lengths that others are not. Surely there is a large concern on this subject. If more people were doing the work that Alexandra Morton is, and coming up with the same results she has, then her work would be undeniably more credible in the eyes of critics. It seems that discrediting somebody is the passive aggressive legal way of silencing somebody.
D
DrRocks
How and why salmon/trout start to migrate in very interesting and something that has received allot of study. Based on genetic studies, scientist can determine how many generations it takes to see a difference in the genes of a species. The conclusions for salmon is that the diversity seen in the different species would take about 10,000 years... in other words, salmon speciation began at the end of the last ice age. There is still some debate on if salmon spawned (as they do today) in streams further south like central CA or Spain, but there is little evidence to support this. One thing is certain, there were almost certainly no spawning salmonoids in OR, WA, AK or Canada and northern Europe - all of these "runs" have developed in the past 10,000 years - and some maybe much more recently than that - 500 years or less! (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2901516/) This is some very good (and interesting) science... and there is plenty more of it out there.
There are also some native American legends that talk about the time before the salmon and they go something like this... Uncle Skunk Cabbage was rewarded by Salmon (the father of the people and brother to Skunk Cabbage) with an elk-skin blanket and war club as a gift for feeding the people before there were salmon in the streams. He was then placed in the rich soil next to the river so that he could great Salmon when he returned in following years. Basically, the natives ate roots and leaves (and maybe small game?) before the salmon runs. Was this because some group of natives moved to the coast and "discovered" salmon runs or because some salmon runs had not started yet?
There are also some native American legends that talk about the time before the salmon and they go something like this... Uncle Skunk Cabbage was rewarded by Salmon (the father of the people and brother to Skunk Cabbage) with an elk-skin blanket and war club as a gift for feeding the people before there were salmon in the streams. He was then placed in the rich soil next to the river so that he could great Salmon when he returned in following years. Basically, the natives ate roots and leaves (and maybe small game?) before the salmon runs. Was this because some group of natives moved to the coast and "discovered" salmon runs or because some salmon runs had not started yet?
E
eugene1
I will have to disagree with your post, well maybe not the Native American legends since I'm not a historian! Distinct salmon runs have been around for far longer than 10,000 years; more like millions of years. The article you mention was looking at two recently evolving sockeye salmon populations only.
Best,
Best,
DrRocks said:How and why salmon/trout start to migrate in very interesting and something that has received allot of study. Based on genetic studies, scientist can determine how many generations it takes to see a difference in the genes of a species. The conclusions for salmon is that the diversity seen in the different species would take about 10,000 years... in other words, salmon speciation began at the end of the last ice age. There is still some debate on if salmon spawned (as they do today) in streams further south like central CA or Spain, but there is little evidence to support this. One thing is certain, there were almost certainly no spawning salmonoids in OR, WA, AK or Canada and northern Europe - all of these "runs" have developed in the past 10,000 years - and some maybe much more recently than that - 500 years or less! (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2901516/) This is some very good (and interesting) science... and there is plenty more of it out there.
There are also some native American legends that talk about the time before the salmon and they go something like this... Uncle Skunk Cabbage was rewarded by Salmon (the father of the people and brother to Skunk Cabbage) with an elk-skin blanket and war club as a gift for feeding the people before there were salmon in the streams. He was then placed in the rich soil next to the river so that he could great Salmon when he returned in following years. Basically, the natives ate roots and leaves (and maybe small game?) before the salmon runs. Was this because some group of natives moved to the coast and "discovered" salmon runs or because some salmon runs had not started yet?
D
DrRocks
There is no evidence that distinct salmon runs existed before the last ice age. The study I referenced was an example that is based on, and helps prove, the science that speciation of salmon is likely <10,000 years old. This speciation was accelerated by the development (for some reason) of distinct runs up distinct drainages.
There is no evidence of salmon runs south of glaciated areas such as central - southern CA or the Iberian peninsula. There is essentially no fossil evidence and, more importantly, no strontium isotopic evidence. Ocean fish carry a very distinctive Strontium (Sr) isotopic ratio and this can be measured in forest soil and even trees where salmon returns bring in ocean nutrients. Using Sr isotopes is one way that scientists have measured the impact of declining salmon returns on local forests. There is no Sr isotopic evidence that there were salmon runs to the south during the last ice age.
There were certainly no salmon runs in many of the "rivers" that were choked with ice in AK and BC and even WA and OR (plus, much, much less water/rain in the WA/OR area during the last ice age!) Many rivers in this state would have been dry. There have been at least 8 glacial cycles over the past million years (maybe 12!) So if there were salmon runs in northern rivers, they have been wiped out many times in the past million years.
I will admit that it is possible that there were salmon runs established in AK and BC (and Or and WA) during the interglacial periods (like we are in now) but it is very unlikely based on the speciation arguments. In other words, if distinct runs were well establish a million or more years ago than the speciation shown in gene sequences would be much greater. I have been working on fish (nearly always salmon) otoliths for nearly a dozen years. Admittedly my biology is a bit weak (but I have read the papers) but my geology is pretty good. The paper given shows that repatriation of salmon runs is possible in a very short period or time. This has also occurred at Katmai in 1912 and salmon runs have started there again, after being completely wiped out for more than 80 years, all naturally.
As far as Native American lore, I find it interesting but certainly not scientific. Leslie L. Haskins was a botanist that collected 100's of oral histories in the early 20th century in Oregon and the author of the one I gave above. I read his works for their eloquent yet not verbose scientific writing and stunning photography and artwork. If you can find his material, check it out. Scientist can not write like that anymore (myself included!)
There are still lots of mysteries that surround the salmon! Cheers.
There is no evidence of salmon runs south of glaciated areas such as central - southern CA or the Iberian peninsula. There is essentially no fossil evidence and, more importantly, no strontium isotopic evidence. Ocean fish carry a very distinctive Strontium (Sr) isotopic ratio and this can be measured in forest soil and even trees where salmon returns bring in ocean nutrients. Using Sr isotopes is one way that scientists have measured the impact of declining salmon returns on local forests. There is no Sr isotopic evidence that there were salmon runs to the south during the last ice age.
There were certainly no salmon runs in many of the "rivers" that were choked with ice in AK and BC and even WA and OR (plus, much, much less water/rain in the WA/OR area during the last ice age!) Many rivers in this state would have been dry. There have been at least 8 glacial cycles over the past million years (maybe 12!) So if there were salmon runs in northern rivers, they have been wiped out many times in the past million years.
I will admit that it is possible that there were salmon runs established in AK and BC (and Or and WA) during the interglacial periods (like we are in now) but it is very unlikely based on the speciation arguments. In other words, if distinct runs were well establish a million or more years ago than the speciation shown in gene sequences would be much greater. I have been working on fish (nearly always salmon) otoliths for nearly a dozen years. Admittedly my biology is a bit weak (but I have read the papers) but my geology is pretty good. The paper given shows that repatriation of salmon runs is possible in a very short period or time. This has also occurred at Katmai in 1912 and salmon runs have started there again, after being completely wiped out for more than 80 years, all naturally.
As far as Native American lore, I find it interesting but certainly not scientific. Leslie L. Haskins was a botanist that collected 100's of oral histories in the early 20th century in Oregon and the author of the one I gave above. I read his works for their eloquent yet not verbose scientific writing and stunning photography and artwork. If you can find his material, check it out. Scientist can not write like that anymore (myself included!)
There are still lots of mysteries that surround the salmon! Cheers.
H
halibuthitman
the salmon confidential is one of the most accurate unbiased films ever produced on the subject.. IMOSpydeyrch said:The one I am thinking of was posted by Mr. Ace. It is the Salmon Confidential. Very interesting video!!
-Spydey
H
halibuthitman
recovering salmon runs is very simple business, close the river to all forms of fishing, remove the hatcheries, remove all logging and dams from the system plant 400,000 trees and bushes, stick logs back in the stream lower the water temps back down where they are supposed to be and deport all the Russians in America... and whalaa... 90,000 fish runs in 10 years.. who's ready to get started?
M
markasd
Wow... Eye opening movie.
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