ethics and native fish

H

halibuthitman

1
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
3,052
Location
on the edge
Saw something today.. not gonna rant or go into details, But no matter what you see on youtube it is extremely unethical to purposely cast to or at visibly spawning native salmon or steelhead.. its as cheap as snagging:mad:
 
T

Throbbit _Shane

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
2,108
Location
Eugene, Oregon
whats your thoughts on legal retention of wild steelhead?

im fishing fast and deep water so i doubt im casting near spawners.
 
H

halibuthitman

1
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
3,052
Location
on the edge
I personaly don't keep any ( trout or steelhead ) native fish, but I think its fine for anyone who wants to where its legal. I will keep wild kings where it is legal, its hard to throw back 15-20 lbs of good food!
 
R

RunWithSasquatch

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
1,519
Location
Spencer Creek, Fool.
I say if its open for retention of natives, then it insinuates that the run can support such a thing....

BONK
 
M

metalfisher76

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,060
Location
pdx oregon
Saw something today.. not gonna rant or go into details, But no matter what you see on youtube it is extremely unethical to purposely cast to or at visibly spawning native salmon or steelhead.. its as cheap as snagging:mad:

I agree, for the most part. What are the chances they were "brats" spawning. I only ask because we all know where I am this time of year. Knowing where 90% of my true nates go and where I am, I can`t assume they are nates. Cause they ain`t. So should I allow the brats to do they`re thing, tainting the strain, or kill `em? I`m gonna kill`em, period. Now if I were on a stream, say the Trask, WHERE NO HATCHERY FISH ARE PLANTED! I`d take a gander and walk by. my $0.02
 
H

halibuthitman

1
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
3,052
Location
on the edge
I agree, for the most part. What are the chances they were "brats" spawning. I only ask because we all know where I am this time of year. Knowing where 90% of my true nates go and where I am, I can`t assume they are nates. Cause they ain`t. So should I allow the brats to do they`re thing, tainting the strain, or kill `em? I`m gonna kill`em, period. Now if I were on a stream, say the Trask, WHERE NO HATCHERY FISH ARE PLANTED! I`d take a gander and walk by. my $0.02
my statement is a broad one meant to cover native fish in general, if in your isolated situation you feel intimate enough with the river to do your own scientificin' thats cool, but now that youve said that about a kazillion guys who have fished a river twice are gonna claim they can do the same.
 
S

SantiamDrifter

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
351
Location
Salem
How would you pluck the brats off the redds and not snagg any of the natives spwaning right next to them?

Now late spring I'll fish the 1st deep slot after redds, But Im targeting those summers coming up behind them waiting for a free lunch.
 
M

metalfisher76

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,060
Location
pdx oregon
my statement is a broad one meant to cover native fish in general, if in your isolated situation you feel intimate enough with the river to do your own scientificin' thats cool, but now that youve said that about a kazillion guys who have fished a river twice are gonna claim they can do the same.

AW, point taken. I knew after I finished my coffee I shoulda just let ya vent, ma bad.

" How would you pluck the brats off the redds and not snagg any of the natives spwaning right next to them? "

90% of the TRUE NATES turn waaayy before the stretch I fish. I don`t really believe for 1 second the "nates" I`ve been getting recently are true. They`re hatchery OFFspring with a fin. I can spit across the water I`m fishin. Some times you can literally see if there`s a fin. But ya, if there are a couple fish spawning (in this particular section, of this particular stream!) I`m prolly castin. Even if I end up with a nate on, chances are darn good the one next to him was hatch. And a great chance that "nates" parents were hatchery. He has to go back. I`d rather not have those hatcheries spawning, um period Again there are streams where they don`t even plant. It could be detrimental to that run just taking it OFF it`s redd. May not get back, may not have the energy to fight OFF competition...... Heck I wouldn`t even let `em know of my presence on piece of water that`s never seen a hatchery fish. But `at`s juss me..


Anyhow, sorry you got bummed out Brad. Did ya bother tryin to educate?
 
G

GDBrown

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2009
Messages
1,485
Location
Hillsboro, Oregon
Brad's point is well intended and I believe he is trying to make us think about when and where we fish. There is one thing that we need to be aware of and I know Brad will agree. There are Native fish and there are naturalized fish. The difference is Natives have been there historically, while naturalized fish have succeeded in reproducing in the wild but are not Native to the local. An example would be small mouth bass in the Columbia river. Personally if I want fish to eat I go where there are planters (trout) or hatchery steelhead and target them, otherwise I'm barbless and they swim away after the fun has ended. It we want to do some good at restoring our native runs we should target the invasive species and remove them all. Especially the ones that have lungs!

GD
 
M

Moe

Active member
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Messages
758
Location
Beaverton, Oregon
I see where you are coming from metalfisher you know that stream very well and know if the fish are truly native or not. I just would never fish a redd if there is any native fish in that river. Because you might strain and kill one of the last truly native fish in that crick.
 
B

Bad Tuna

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
197
Location
Gilligans Island
The latest studies are saying that wild fish breed with hatchery fish less than 2% of the time. Wild fish are more dominate in spawning and choose to breed with other more dominate fish. Cross breeding is of little concern. Hatchery or wild, I think it's poor sportsmanship to fish on redds, or to keep dark fish, fin or no. Dark spawners can come back as repeat spawners at a rate of nearly 10%. Why cheat others out of the resource because of ignorance? If it's legal, and chrome take it home. If it's dark, leave it alone, don't waste it because it's dark and missing a fin.
 
T

todd_brooks

Active member
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
217
Location
L.O getto
I'm curious has that stream of yours never had a native run and is it possible for natives to stray the way brats are know to? Not judging just wondering how you can tell the difference is all?
 
H

halibuthitman

1
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
3,052
Location
on the edge
" A fish if far too valuable to only be caught once" Lee Wulff-
 
M

metalfisher76

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,060
Location
pdx oregon
I'm curious has that stream of yours never had a native run and is it possible for natives to stray the way brats are know to? Not judging just wondering how you can tell the difference is all?

Sure they can. But as pointed out earlier they are far superior in finding/choosing spawning grounds and mates. Do what ya feel is right peeps, as I said, in other places I would walk by. Can I tell between a true nate/naturalized fish? No, but I`ve done enough talkin to bio`s and fishin up there to sleep good at night. But leave a fish cause it`s dark? Leave hatcheries in the system?? Sorry, whole heartily disagree. ALL HATCHERY FISH MUST/WILL!DIE!


"The latest studies are saying that wild fish breed with hatchery fish less than 2% of the time. Wild fish are more dominate in spawning and choose to breed with other more dominate fish."

Documents? If the hatchery fish is 13 lbs. and the nate is 7lbs, who is more dominant? I bring this up for battling over spawning grounds. I also beg the ? How doe`s the 7#nate tell the 13#hatch doesn`t have a fin? Every system is a completely different entity. So this study means exactly squat.
 
Last edited:
B

beaverfan

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
2,179
Location
Beaverton, Oregon
Documents? If the hatchery fish is 13 lbs. and the nate is 7lbs, who is more dominant? I bring this up for battling over spawning grounds. I also beg the ? How doe`s the 7#nate tell the 13#hatch doesn`t have a fin? Every system is a completely different entity. So this study means exactly squat.


Wild rainbow trout critical to health of steelhead populations


1-31-11

CORVALLIS, Ore. – Genetic research is showing that healthy steelhead runs in Pacific Northwest streams can depend heavily on the productivity of their stay-at-home counterparts, rainbow trout.
Steelhead and rainbow trout look different, grow differently, and one heads off to sea while the other never leaves home. But the life histories and reproductive health of wild trout and steelhead are tightly linked and interdependent, more so than has been appreciated, a new Oregon State University study concludes.
The research could raise new challenges for fishery managers to pay equally close attention to the health, stability and habitat of wild rainbow trout, the researchers say, because healthy steelhead populations may require healthy trout populations.
In a field study in Hood River, Ore., researchers used DNA analysis to determine that up to 40 percent of the genes in returning steelhead came from wild rainbow trout, rather than other steelhead. And only 1 percent of the genes came from “residualized” hatchery fish – fish that had stayed in the stream and mated, but not gone to sea as intended by the hatchery program.
“It used to be thought that coastal rainbow trout and steelhead were actually two different fish species, but we’ve known for some time that isn’t true,” said Mark Christie, an OSU postdoctoral research associate and expert in fish genetic analysis. “What’s remarkable about these findings is not just that these are the same fish species, but the extent to which they interbreed, and how important wild trout are to the health of steelhead populations.”
This research, just published in the journal Molecular Ecology, was based on a 15-year analysis of 12,725 steelhead from Oregon’s Hood River, each of which was sampled to determine its genetic background and parentage. It was supported by funding from the Bonneville Power Administration.
The study reveals a complex picture of wild trout and steelhead intermingling as they reproduce. A steelhead might be produced by the spawning of two steelhead, two wild trout, or a returning steelhead and a trout.
Rainbow trout are small to moderate-sized fish in most rivers, but if that same fish migrates to the ocean it can return as a huge steelhead weighing 30 pounds or more, prized for sport fishing. Researchers still don’t know exactly why some trout choose to go to the ocean and others don’t, although they believe at least some part of the equation is genetic.
Studies of rainbow trout and steelhead have been undertaken, in part, to better understand the implications of hatcheries. Including all salmonid species, more than one billion hatchery salmon are released into Pacific Northwest streams each year. And because hatcheries produce fish that are less able to survive and successfully reproduce in the wild, there is concern about hatchery fish mating with wild fish.
“One implication of this study is that the genetic contribution by wild trout is diluting the input of genes from hatchery fish to the wild steelhead population,” said Michael Blouin, an OSU professor of zoology and co-author on this study.
“The genetic influences of hatchery fish on wild steelhead populations are still a concern,” Blouin said. “But the good news from the Hood River is that the hatchery genes are being diluted more than we thought, and thus may not be having as much impact on dragging down the fitness of the wild steelhead.”
The genetic influence of wild rainbow trout, the scientists said, is roughly cutting in half the genetic input of hatchery fish that reproduce in the wild – a mitigation of their impact that’s of some importance.
The scientists cautioned that results from one river might not be representative of all steelhead populations. Nevertheless, Christie said, “The importance of trout in maintaining steelhead runs should not be underestimated.
“They can act as a healthy genetic reservoir and preserve reproductive populations during years when ocean conditions make steelhead survival very difficult,” he said. “So a good way of looking at it is, whatever is good for wild rainbow trout is also good for steelhead.”
Worth noting, the researchers said, is that most other salmonids, such as coho or chinook salmon, do not have this type of fall-back system to help produce fish with a higher capability of surviving. As such, they may be more vulnerable than steelhead to the concerns about genetic weaknesses produced by hatchery fish.
 
M

metalfisher76

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,060
Location
pdx oregon
Wild rainbow trout critical to health of steelhead populations


1-31-11

CORVALLIS, Ore. – Genetic research is showing that healthy steelhead runs in Pacific Northwest streams can depend heavily on the productivity of their stay-at-home counterparts, rainbow trout.
Steelhead and rainbow trout look different, grow differently, and one heads off to sea while the other never leaves home. But the life histories and reproductive health of wild trout and steelhead are tightly linked and interdependent, more so than has been appreciated, a new Oregon State University study concludes.
The research could raise new challenges for fishery managers to pay equally close attention to the health, stability and habitat of wild rainbow trout, the researchers say, because healthy steelhead populations may require healthy trout populations.
In a field study in Hood River, Ore., researchers used DNA analysis to determine that up to 40 percent of the genes in returning steelhead came from wild rainbow trout, rather than other steelhead. And only 1 percent of the genes came from “residualized” hatchery fish – fish that had stayed in the stream and mated, but not gone to sea as intended by the hatchery program.
“It used to be thought that coastal rainbow trout and steelhead were actually two different fish species, but we’ve known for some time that isn’t true,” said Mark Christie, an OSU postdoctoral research associate and expert in fish genetic analysis. “What’s remarkable about these findings is not just that these are the same fish species, but the extent to which they interbreed, and how important wild trout are to the health of steelhead populations.”
This research, just published in the journal Molecular Ecology, was based on a 15-year analysis of 12,725 steelhead from Oregon’s Hood River, each of which was sampled to determine its genetic background and parentage. It was supported by funding from the Bonneville Power Administration.
The study reveals a complex picture of wild trout and steelhead intermingling as they reproduce. A steelhead might be produced by the spawning of two steelhead, two wild trout, or a returning steelhead and a trout.
Rainbow trout are small to moderate-sized fish in most rivers, but if that same fish migrates to the ocean it can return as a huge steelhead weighing 30 pounds or more, prized for sport fishing. Researchers still don’t know exactly why some trout choose to go to the ocean and others don’t, although they believe at least some part of the equation is genetic.
Studies of rainbow trout and steelhead have been undertaken, in part, to better understand the implications of hatcheries. Including all salmonid species, more than one billion hatchery salmon are released into Pacific Northwest streams each year. And because hatcheries produce fish that are less able to survive and successfully reproduce in the wild, there is concern about hatchery fish mating with wild fish.
“One implication of this study is that the genetic contribution by wild trout is diluting the input of genes from hatchery fish to the wild steelhead population,” said Michael Blouin, an OSU professor of zoology and co-author on this study.
“The genetic influences of hatchery fish on wild steelhead populations are still a concern,” Blouin said. “But the good news from the Hood River is that the hatchery genes are being diluted more than we thought, and thus may not be having as much impact on dragging down the fitness of the wild steelhead.”
The genetic influence of wild rainbow trout, the scientists said, is roughly cutting in half the genetic input of hatchery fish that reproduce in the wild – a mitigation of their impact that’s of some importance.
The scientists cautioned that results from one river might not be representative of all steelhead populations. Nevertheless, Christie said, “The importance of trout in maintaining steelhead runs should not be underestimated.
“They can act as a healthy genetic reservoir and preserve reproductive populations during years when ocean conditions make steelhead survival very difficult,” he said. “So a good way of looking at it is, whatever is good for wild rainbow trout is also good for steelhead.”
Worth noting, the researchers said, is that most other salmonids, such as coho or chinook salmon, do not have this type of fall-back system to help produce fish with a higher capability of surviving. As such, they may be more vulnerable than steelhead to the concerns about genetic weaknesses produced by hatchery fish.

That`s the 1! And it`s a good read. I remember reading it but was more into the trout genes in steelhead stuff.

All I`m sayin is some places are different than others. In the 80`s they introduced summers to the Clack. About the same time WDFW put springers in the Kalama. In 2009 WDFW shut down the Kalama fishery to save the "native springers?". In or around 2001?? ODFW quit letting the introduced summers go up past Caz. BUT won`t let you keep the "fins"...that were never there.

Do your homework, learn your system. Don`t take mine/anyones word for it. Look it all up. Most important fish it, for years. Talkin to as many of the 'bios" and hatchery staff and even cops/wardens as you can along the way. Make your decisions, I`ll make mine. I certainly DO NOT condone casting at native fish, truly native fish. I think HHM knows this and I`m done on the subject. Till next time;)
 
B

Bad Tuna

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
197
Location
Gilligans Island
The studies done conclude that wild fish prefer to spawn with wild fish, and that wild fish prefer to spawn higher in the system than hatchery fish on average. Also to note, that while hatchery fish are not as "fit" to spawn in the wild, that each generation doubles it's fitness, and can spawn as successfully as wild fish in 3-4 generations spawning in the wild. Broodstock fish can be just as fit in even less time. In short, hatchery fish, spawning in the wild with hatchery fish can actually positively contribute to the wild population in a fairly short period of time. if hatchery fish spawn with other hatchery fish, in the wild, it's actually a good thing.

Remember, less than 20 years ago, debris in creeks was considered bad for fish, and removed. Biologists are learning too.
 
B

beaverfan

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
2,179
Location
Beaverton, Oregon
That`s the 1! And it`s a good read. I remember reading it but was more into the trout genes in steelhead stuff.

All I`m sayin is some places are different than others. In the 80`s they introduced summers to the Clack. About the same time WDFW put springers in the Kalama. In 2009 WDFW shut down the Kalama fishery to save the "native springers?". In or around 2001?? ODFW quit letting the introduced summers go up past Caz. BUT won`t let you keep the "fins"...that were never there.

Do your homework, learn your system. Don`t take mine/anyones word for it. Look it all up. Most important fish it, for years. Talkin to as many of the 'bios" and hatchery staff and even cops/wardens as you can along the way. Make your decisions, I`ll make mine. I certainly DO NOT condone casting at native fish, truly native fish. I think HHM knows this and I`m done on the subject. Till next time;)

I'm not saying your wrong but I aint saying your right either.
 
M

metalfisher76

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,060
Location
pdx oregon
Introduced=never were there.

Hatchery/broodstock from it`s own system= all good:)

That`s the distinction I`m trying to get across.

And after years of fishing a stretch of water with 1 nate to every 20 hatchery caught, directly below a hatchery..... I feel pretty confident they are not nate, up there. It was designed that way, or they got lucky??? But the nates turn.... their superior senses tell `em to. Directly below a hatchery... I`m takin my fish, uuuuuum period
 
Top Bottom