What happened to all the big kings?

Upnorth
I don’t often read this form. But the last conversation about King Salmon has peaked my interest. Many of the things you said in here or absolutely spot on, but there’s so many things that were not discussed and it seems nobody wants to address the issues, of predation. On the average an adult Sealion Will kill 7 salmon a day, and a seal will do the same. Also killer whales, They have two major pods K and J, one eat sea lion as their main course, but the other pod has exclusively switched to Salmon. Both these predators numbers have increased tremendously. Now the only way to combat the rising amount of predation of the adult salmon would be increase the amount of salmon in the ocean. The only way to do that is hatcheries. If you have 100 wild Fish, a sea lion eats 50 of then 100 % is wild Fish, but if you have 50 wild Fish, and 50 hatchery fish. Then a sea lion more than likely by statistics will have only killed 25 wild Fish. This topic, does not just relate to adult fish. Predation, in the juvenile fish is out of control. There are millions of cormorants, turns,(birds in general) plus especially in the Columbia system, Pike minnows, Walleye,, and so on. That prey on salmon smolts, it is out of control. Once again if hatcheries produce Smolts then the wild Juvenile salmon has a much better chance of making it back to the ocean and back to the river. There are many studies, on predation of many species. The results are not being used and not being discussed in the whole big picture. We need to have all the study groups within the ODFW, Held accountable for the results, The answer is not. quit fishing or just catch and release.

In California 30 years ago the chinook salmon was on the brink of extinction in their river systems. Now California is one of the larger producers of chinook salmon. The state of Washington has almost 3 times the amount of salmon returning to the rivers than they do in Oregon. Back in the late 70s they took the technology of chinook salmon hatcheries to Lake Michigan, and now lake Michigan is one of the most successful chinook salmon fisheries in the United States. In Oregon in the 70s we adapted a wild fish policy, unfortunately it has not been updated or re-focused since then. Oregon used to be the leader and Salmon technology. Now we have became a large petri dish, to study and focus on whatever the biologists have deemed necessary for their own outcome. 90% of the studies from the biologist are based on monies from Federal grants. Studies used to be in the span of 7 years, now they have increased most studies up to 12 and some 14 years. We are studying ourselves to death, while salmon population Declines.

We need to hold ODFW accountable for their actions. Once again, not to fish, catch and release, and shutting all the hatcheries, is not the solution. Studying until the last fish is gone, is not the solution. The solution is, accountability, action, and working together, for an end RESULT.
 
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jamisonace
Upnorth said:
If you have 100 wild Fish, a sea lion eats 50 of then 100 % is wild Fish, but if you have 50 wild Fish, and 50 hatchery fish. Then a sea lion more than likely by statistics will have only killed 25 wild Fish.
I have been making this exact same point lately. Thanks for bringing that up. I would argue that you'll still start with 100 wild fish. The more hatchery fish you add...1000, 10,000+ the better for the wild fish.

Oh, and no doubt that ODFW is awful. Every state around us does a better job at managing anadromous fish. Even fricking Idaho...and they're landlocked!
 
Upnorth
Thank you, and your probably right on the numbers, it sometime is hard to articulate my thoughts.😀
 
John Jones
Does anyone know how I can stop a member from messaging me? He's been told in no uncertain terms twice now that I have no desire to hear from him, and it's just gotten stalkerish and weird. I tried to be polite at first and told him my time was limited, but he responded with some lip about how I had time to type that particular response, I had time to answer his question. I'm not sure where the sense of entitlement comes from or why he thinks he gets to control the narrative, but I just don't like him enough to want to carry on a discussion through the message system here with him. Adults don't demand that others converse with them.

When I asked the admin here how to delete my account or unjoin this thing, I was told that I couldn't. Another member told me that he's a teenager, which would explain a lot, but his parents need to teach their little jackass about boundaries.
 
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Shaun Solomon
😂 Jeebus.
 
C_Run
This reminds me of OFF in 2011.
 
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Shaun Solomon
One of the great inducements to participate in these types of forums must surely be the ability to converse with personable, like minded individuals. 😂
 
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O. mykiss
First and foremost, I started a very controversial conversation on purpose. I wanted all us of to put forth our best guess or present information about what has happened to all of our 5-7 year old kings.
That being said, all need to be respectful regardless of their stance. We live in very turbulent times, let’s all let OFF be our safe space and respect one another and once again learn from each other and have a respectful debate.

Back to the topic at hand, as Wildfish stated it appears that Alaskan king salmon fisheries have gone to trawl only. One area that I’ve not seen touched is the bycatch of king salmon in other fisheries. One fishery that is well known for killing non-target species in the Alaskan pollock fishery, known well for the fishwich. They are a trade fishery and indiscriminately kill anything that is in their way.
 
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gfisher2003
I appreciate you starting such an interesting discussion @O. mykiss. I do think in my defense I've been fairly respectful, at the very least not calling people jackass lol.

https://www.npfmc.org/bsai-salmon-bycatch/salmon-bycatch/

an interesting article on bycatch of salmon. They seem to be saying that it rarely takes a large percentage of returning salmon runs, around 3%. That will obviously vary by random chance between stocks and will have an outsized effect on already small stocks and salmon that are in the ocean for longer though.
 
John Jones
O. mykiss said:
Back to the topic at hand, as Wildfish stated it appears that Alaskan king salmon fisheries have gone to trawl only. One area that I’ve not seen touched is the bycatch of king salmon in other fisheries. One fishery that is well known for killing non-target species in the Alaskan pollock fishery, known well for the fishwich. They are a trade fishery and indiscriminately kill anything that is in their way.
I did not say that Alaskan king salmon fisheries have "gone to trawl only," so let's establish the difference between trawling and trolling. Trawling drags the ocean with nets; trolling involves hook-and-line fishing, one fish at a time. Troll vessels are generally smallish boats with a two-to-four guy crew.

What I said, again, is that the majority of allocated kings go to the trollers, the next group is the sports guys, and the least amount to vessels that use nets. Nonetheless, again, Alaska fishermen are pretty restricted concerning the number of kings they're allowed to catch.

About 10% of returning kings end up as groundfish bycatch out in the Bering and the Gulf. This article may be of interest to you:

https://www.kstk.org/2021/04/21/com...ut-against-trawler-bycatch-of-chinook-salmon/
ETA the photo in this article will give you an idea of the size of the average troll vessel:

https://www.nationalfisherman.com/a...th-more-than-oil-base-price-up-in-bristol-bay
 
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O. mykiss
Wildfish said:
I did not say that Alaskan king salmon fisheries have "gone to trawl only," so let's establish the difference between trawling and trolling. Trawling drags the ocean with nets; trolling involves hook-and-line fishing, one fish at a time. Troll vessels are generally smallish boats with a two-to-four guy crew.

What I said, again, is that the majority of allocated kings go to the trollers, the next group is the sports guys, and the least amount to vessels that use nets. Nonetheless, again, Alaska fishermen are pretty restricted concerning the number of kings they're allowed to catch.

About 10% of returning kings end up as groundfish bycatch out in the Bering and the Gulf. This article may be of interest to you:

https://www.kstk.org/2021/04/21/com...ut-against-trawler-bycatch-of-chinook-salmon/
Thanks for catching that, I meant troll only and not trawl only. One is with hook and line where as the other is with a net. My bad
 
jamisonace
O. mykiss said:
First and foremost, I started a very controversial conversation on purpose.
Nothing has to be controversial if you would all just agree with me.
 
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John Jones
O. mykiss said:
Thanks for catching that, I meant troll only and not trawl only. One is with hook and line where as the other is with a net. My bad
Just to make it clear — I didn't claim that it's "gone to troll only," either. They're usually allocated the biggest share is all, but sports fishing is big business in Alaska, and net fisheries like Copper River are small but significant. But all of these have been severely restricted for years. ETA I ran across this the other day that may be of interest to you:

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/west...itoring-thiamine-deficiency-california-salmon
 
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gfisher2003
Wildfish said:
I did not say that Alaskan king salmon fisheries have "gone to trawl only," so let's establish the difference between trawling and trolling. Trawling drags the ocean with nets; trolling involves hook-and-line fishing, one fish at a time. Troll vessels are generally smallish boats with a two-to-four guy crew.

What I said, again, is that the majority of allocated kings go to the trollers, the next group is the sports guys, and the least amount to vessels that use nets. Nonetheless, again, Alaska fishermen are pretty restricted concerning the number of kings they're allowed to catch.

About 10% of returning kings end up as groundfish bycatch out in the Bering and the Gulf. This article may be of interest to you:

https://www.kstk.org/2021/04/21/com...ut-against-trawler-bycatch-of-chinook-salmon/
ETA the photo in this article will give you an idea of the size of the average troll vessel:

https://www.nationalfisherman.com/a...th-more-than-oil-base-price-up-in-bristol-bay
saying 10% of returning kings is wrong. The full quote in the article is "Federal fisheries data show trawlers in the North Pacific took about a tenth of the Chinook — or king salmon — caught by Alaska’s commercial salmon fleet last year". That is not a percentage of the number of returning Chinook it is a percentage of total caught Chinook. These are very different numbers considering as you yourself have said Alaska fisherman are pretty restricted concerning the number of kings they're allowed to catch.

If you would refer to this article https://www.npfmc.org/bsai-salmon-bycatch/salmon-bycatch/ bycatch only takes about 3% of returning Chinook a number that is almost negligible in comparison to the recent reductions in Chinook runsize.
 
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