Roll cast practice trouble, sinking tip casting

[fish_4_all]

Is there a way to practice the roll cast when not on water? I have trying for a couple weeks now with both my floating and sinking tip 8 wt and I can't get anything to work. Everytime I try I get a pile of line about 6 feet in front of me. I think I am doing it right short of not having water to load the rod. I have watched a good 25 videos and followed the concept, 45* angles, lift to 1 or 2 o'clock slightly to side, drift arm downard motion, flip and quick stop.

Is there any way to practice it off the water or do I need to go out and try it on the water to get it to work right?

I also got my sinking tip #3 8 wt line out a couple days ago and I think I am doing pretty good with it. I did notice that if I made any kind of mistake coming too far back or not timing things right that I about pierced my ear with the fly though. I did notice when I did it right that the fly rolled out perfect and my distances increased, which makes sense.

Any tips or things I need to know about throwing sinking tip line when I get to the river and actually fish with it that differ from regular WF line?

 

[Casting Call]

To much drag with a sinktip on the ground. Try dry fly set-up and a shorter tippit and leader and play-out 2x the rod length. pull drag the line on the ground and side FLIP the line to the 11:00 o'clock position. Remember this is just for roll cast practice. The distance will come later with the timing. Practice,practice and more practice just for the timing. Hope this helps.CC p.s. btw such a beautiful area, the old nuke power plant is my favorite.

 

[wozniasm]

You can do this OFF the water.
If you end up with a pile of line, Raise your rod up, bring it back so the line is slightly behind you, bring the rod back to the 12 o'clock position then quickly release forward.
See if that works.
Also see what Onthe fly posted yesterday that has all the basic casts which discusses a roll cast.

If this doesn't work, let us know!

What CC stated is correct and a possibly causing issues - you may have way too much line out and try it without the sink tip. Eliminate as many variables as possible till you get it down.

 

[fish_4_all]

Too much line could well be the problem, I was trying it with maybe 20 feet. Guess I will reduce it to about 10 and see if I can simply learn how to did it at all. I have to learn it if I want to fly fish anywhere near anyone else.

Also, do you use a shorter leader with a sinking tip? I figure a 3 ft knotted leader is about the most but still learning everything away from a floating line.

 

[wozniasm]

Too much line could well be the problem, I was trying it with maybe 20 feet. Guess I will reduce it to about 10 and see if I can simply learn how to did it at all. I have to learn it if I want to fly fish anywhere near anyone else.

Also, do you use a shorter leader with a sinking tip? I figure a 3 ft knotted leader is about the most but still learning everything away from a floating line.

Decrease the amount of line till you get it down then strip out a foot at a time so you can see the max you can roll cast.

Now about the leader length, I'm going to let folks that know more than I answer that.

 

[Tinker]

Raise your rod up, bring it back so the line is slightly behind you, bring the rod back to the 12 o'clock position then quickly release forward.

I'm new to this, too, and I thought I'd never get a roll cast to work. The part about bringing the rod tip back to the 12 o'clock position before flicking it forward is critical. Until I learned to do that, all I could get was a snakey S-curve of line about 7 or 8 feet long. With practice, I can roll cast on the grass maybe 25-30 feet with good accuracy.

I've never tried a roll cast in the grass with a sinking tip line, and can't speak about whether that does or does not make a difference.

 

[fish_4_all]

Well what do you know. Seeing it done proper and then doing it proper makes a huge difference. I was able ot get about 20 feet or so. I will have to see if I can roll over a fly or not when it is lighter outside.

Remembering that 12 o'clock position is HARD to do when one is used to the whole 10 and 2 regular cast. That video made a huge difference compared to others I tried to copy online. Why that video I don't know but it made it so basic I guess I had to be able to understand and follow it.

I didn't get to try this yet since my yard is long and narrow but when I do: Is the same technique used when you want to bring a fly back up from downstream and then cast straight out or wherever in front of you? Is there any little changes or quirks to get the line to go out straight in the right direction since the force is downstream and the rod load will be a little in that direction?

I wil try the sink tip tomorrow I hope. I also think that the length of leader I can make work will be a lot of practice and trail and error with the flies I plan to use.

 

[wozniasm]

A: Is the same technique used when you want to bring a fly back up from downstream and then cast straight out or wherever in front of you?
B: Is there any little changes or quirks to get the line to go out straight in the right direction since the force is downstream and the rod load will be a little in that direction?

A: If your retrieving line from downstream, what I do is get it back, swing my rod upstream to get the line back in front of me then do a roll cast.

B: A slight change in the angle/tilt of the rod (Off to the side rather than straight up) before you shoot will help you change the direction of where you want to land your line. I hope that makes sense!

 

[SteelyStalker12]

fish_4_all,

I don't know if you have figured out your issue yet or not, but I typed up a little something for you and whoever else might be interested in the info I have to share.

I learned how to do all of my fly fishing in northern Michigan. Out here (I am a soon-to-be Oregon resident) we fish streamers after heavy rains for big brown trout with heavy sink tip lines. I do have a couple pointers for you as well as a couple questions regarding your sink tip set up.

I'll start with the questions. What grain is your sink tip and at what fps does it sink? If it is a really heavy sink tip, it is IMPERATIVE that you get your anchor points set right. A lighter sink tip you can get away with not being so precise but, lighter sink tips won't roll cast as far. My other question regards to your equipment setup. Do you have an actual sink tip line or is it a sink tip attached to a floating line. This can make a huge difference because if you have only 10 or so feet of sink tip on a floating line you are going to have one h$*# of a time trying to roll cast it with 25' of line out.

Now a couple pointers I might like to add. Your anchor points are crucial. If you are unsure what those are, they are the points where the sink tip meets the water and where the weight is distributed throughout the rod. if you have a lot of the weight of the sink tip in the water and try to roll cast you are going to experience an immense amount of water drag (resulting in the 6 feet of messy line in front of you). It also can be disastrous the other way as well. All the weight in the rod and none in the water it will just do a quick flip and you'll end up with yet another short cast. The moral of this explanation really boils down to simple physics. You have to figure out how the weight needs to be distributed FOR YOUR SETUP (each set of equipment is different) that will result in the most efficient transfer of energy from the roll cast motion to the weight in the line. For most of my sink tip setup's, it works best for me this way: for a 30' head of 300 grain sink tip and I will let out a bunch of line to begin with (the 30' head and maybe 10 or so feet of running line). I will let out 20 or so feet of the sink tip and with the rod I will do short little roll casts to position it out in front of me with my rod parallel to the surface. I will then raise my rod tip in a smooth but firm motion so that the line will ski on the top of the water to about the 1 o'clock position. You will notice that at this position you will have only about 5' of the end of your sink tip actually in the water and the rest will bow up to your rod tip. This is called forming a "D-Loop". From this position you will have created a large amount of potential energy in the line and in your rod and will have very little water drag to deal with. At this point you will do what my buddy likes to refer as "chop wood". In other words, in one fast but smooth motion, snap your rod tip in a motion similar to the way a judge smacks his hammer towards the surface of the water. You have just completed a roll cast. It takes practice! Being a good roll caster with a sink tip line does not come over night and there are few fly anglers who are great at this. Regardless, I hope this helps with your dilemma, and you can apply a lot of this to a floating line situation as well!!!

Tight lines!

Joe

 

[fish_4_all]

The line is: WF8/F/S with a 10 foot sinking tip Type III. Site says it is 3.5-4 inch sink rate so I am guessing 300 grain. 8 Wt. Rod.

I have gotten okay at roll casting the WF/F but haven't tried the sinking tip again yet. I figure I better get good at the other before trying something harder.

Only real problem I am having so far is getting consistantly hitting the right point in the downward flip to get it to roll out right. That and my timing is probably too slow but I am still working on making the D right and I am not doing anything smooth enough yet. Will just take practice. Thankfully the spots I want try this fall are not too cramped and I shold be able to make a back cast in most of them.