Horrible new John Day regulations

everett464 · Jan 5, 2011

2. Cannot coin a phrase for these folks, but they border on the lines of strange to me. Extreme environmentalists, who think the outdoors should only be looked at from a reserve, buy special shoes so not to destroy the earth below them. Get in your face because you have purchased a hunting license, drew a tag, and are harvesting game.

To be clear, this type of person is simply not at issue in this scenario. It is not me, and it is not the nature of the regulation.

I presented "80%" as a very loose figure. There are many, many variables required in an evaluation of pristine areas, and it sort of depends on what you are going to call "development." Are we talking about areas with no buildings at all, no roads, no clear-clear cutting or checker-boarding, or just an area that still has some old trees? I was just using a relatively arbitrary number to present a relatively inarguable phenomenon. While I agree that growth was and is inevitable, I do not think that we have followed very sound principles in the way we have grown as a country.

Some folks spend all, or almost all, of their pay-checks each month, and others spend what they need conservatively, and invest the rest so that there is a natural, self-accumulating reserve. Both people are seen as successful, but the first has a garage full of junk that they don't and can't use anymore. My point is that America has been living like the first group.

Finally, I am more conscious about not littering than my dad is, and I suspect that he was more conscious about leaving rubbish around than his dad was. I think that there may be some truth to the idea that young people litter more than our older counter-parts, but my guess is that it is a symptom of youth, and not a symptom of the times. Older people also wake up earlier and get in fewer bar-fights, but these are almost certainly immutable characteristics of humanity, and not any sort of valid chicken-little scenario.

ghostcow · Jan 5, 2011

Yikes, this is turning into a conversation which I usually find on other fishing bulletin boards. And by this I mean that this discussion: is way off the original topic, reads like a Tea Party/Fox News report, attacks those people and ideas which they do not understand, relies on stereotypes of every group mentioned.

So, where were we, oh, never been to the John Day but would hope to go because I have only heard good things and I love to visit eastern Oregon. As usual, it is a shame that people are loving an area to death and trashing it. The goal, I would think, is to have a healthy river, river system and fish/fauna population in 100 years, if the current rate and type of use is not going to let this happen then the current management system must be changed so my grandchildren can enjoy the area. So, those of you with first hand experience with the current conditions: 1) Is the current state of affairs on the river sustainable to meet the above goals (or whatever goals you set)? If yes, then good and you should simple say to let it be and "I don't think intervention is needed". or 2) if it needs to be changed then you should state what you feel is the appropriate way that it should be changed, how/why you agree or disagree with proposed plan and what you would do differently.

My opinion, and admittedly without first hand knowledge, it does seem like a very drastic change in the access to the river and if needed should be phased in over a number of years to see how lowering the access numbers meet the goals of protecting the river/fish/fishing/scenic beauty/rafters. Ok, that is all I can think to say but the government isn't all bad, environmentalist aren't all radicals, hunters/fishermen aren't all ultra-conservative anti-governemnt rednecks, the youth of today are not that much different than the youth of yesterday.
Cheers!

viento · Jan 6, 2011

Agendas are not often started in conspicuous ways, nor severe restrictions first implemented at the most popular places. So this green ruling class restriction starts in a small river hundreds of miles from Portland, establishes or reinforces precident, then eventually, the Clackamas, the Deschutes, the Sandy, the coastal rivers, all will come under ever increasing usage restrictions, with layers of costly government bureaucracy siphoning taxpayer money to fund the controls. Note the Marine Reserves are not first implemented at locations receiving the heaviest public usage, rather in very inconspicuous areas, kayak territory used by dozens, rather than tens of thousands. By design, they will grow, and new ones are to be propagated. The takeover agendas are why businesses leave Oregon, and why those who stay cut back, or sit tight, instead of expanding. Its not about political parties, or news outlets, it's the basic freedoms this country are founded upon that are at stake.
There is too much government, at to high a price, both must be drastically reduced, or our freedom to fish, hunt, hike, ski, swim, make use of watercraft, even driving
to places where such things are done, will be rare and expensive events, instead of a healthy and happy lifestyle.

viento · Jan 6, 2011

everett464 said:
This sounds like the rant of a jaded, grumpy, and disappointing old person. Further, it is woefully off-topic, but since you bring it up...

Regardless of your fiscal political leanings, how can someone who has pledged an interest in the outdoors and fishing (I am assuming these, as a symptom of your membership to this forum) not embrace environmentalism as a central tenet to our successful future? You refer to a time "before the fall," which I can only assume refers to a time where there were significantly less people in Oregon and America, and thus more natural beauty and resources. Our resources are not infinite, but the generations who built our socio-environmental culture were brought up to believe they were. If you keep big dogs un-fettered in your back yard, you need to get out the shovel every once in a while, or no one is going to want to play horseshoes at your BBQ.

I have no-clue what the Environmental Impact Statement leading to this Major Federal Action said, or why the conclusion was reached in the way it was, but I can almost guarantee that there will be huge rewards reaped by such a measure. We have spent the last 250 years acting like drunken frat-boys, completely destroying 80% of the natural beauty in our once beautiful country (is it our destroyed natural resources you were referring to as only preserved in "memories and documentary film accounts"?), and now we need to take action to protect what is left.

I am, almost certainly, a member of the generation that you so adamantly admonish for being socially and fiscally irresponsible, and can tell you that, yes, I was indoctrinated with a tilt towards environmentalism that borders on religion. You see, the thing is, your generation (I assume you are from a different generation than my own; a slightly... older generation) helped to create a world where we are faced with a diminishing surplus of natural building materials, open spaces, and energy resources. You raped and pillaged everything that was good for our world, to sustain the gluttonous fancies of what is almost certainly the worst thing for our world. You imply that what is different is bad, and I would argue, as an heir of this failing globe that you helped create, what is different is expedient and paramount to me and my heirs.

Finally, my social skills are fine, as are my peers. What you fail to see from your couch, watching Fox-News, is a bountiful generation of optimistic, educated, motivated young-people, but we are here. We just feel differently about things than you did. There were no-purse strings that pulled me through seven years of College and Grad-School, nor were they there when I enlisted and commissioned in the Army. I am certainly not alone in these things either. I am sorry that you have become so angry about the corrective actions necessary to clean the backsplash behind your toilet, but I am going to participate in the cleanup efforts none-the-less.

You have embraced the politically correct definition of environmentalism, and assume any other definition is inferior. But your emotion driven account of history, both contemporary, and dating back 250 years, betrays the poor educational system through which you advanced. But I commend you for persevering and advancing through it.
A few simple questions,

1. Where on earth would you travel to, to observe the greatest bounty and diversity of wildlife, the equator, or the ice caps?

2. Does global warming encourage, or discourage life, as we know it?

3. If your boss gave you a raise equivalent to the percentage of carbon dioxide in
the earths atmosphere, would you feel insulted?

4. Will there be record or near record low temperatures throughout the midwest USA in
the middle of January 2011?

5. Do government controlled projects, funded by tax money, create economic growth,
or restrict it?

6. Is Carbon Dioxide a pollutant, or a vital resource?

And just for the record, I am not grumpy, I use a maple rocking chair the few moments I spare to watch local news, I don't have Fox News access on TV, and I thank you for serving in our military, and working your way through school. Neither
of those pursuits were the easy way out.
Cheers

Raincatcher · Jan 6, 2011

Stay on track...

Stay on track...

Thread topic is rafting and boating...please stay on topic and open another thread for other topics! :naughty:

viento · Jan 6, 2011

Hi, I believe the topic is the >restriction< of rafting and boating. How can fishermen discuss such restrictions,
without including the source of them, and the motives of those who design and enforce them? Political discussion is healthy, and in my opinion,
at the core of this topic.
Cheers

halibuthitman · Jan 6, 2011

viento said:
Hi, I believe the topic is the >restriction< of rafting and boating. How can fishermen discuss such restrictions,
without including the source of them, and the motives of those who design and enforce them? Political discussion is healthy, and in my opinion,
at the core of this topic.
Cheers

I could not agree more... yet on most discussions politics and Religion are dangerous waters...

mastercaster · Jan 6, 2011

Everyone knows the goverment sucks as do the rules and regulations they impose . Those new rules are obviously extreme . Guess what else is extreme seven pages of opinionated ranting about said goverment . I joined this site for fishing info and some decent conversation with fellow sportsmen . For a minute I thought I had wandered onto craigslist rants & raves section . Have a nice day mastercaster

Amberjack · Jan 6, 2011

halibuthitman said:
I could not agree more... yet on most discussions politics and Religion are dangerous waters...

Ahhh yes Danielson, but do we agree that we can disagree and not get into said dragon flame war?... LOL I think this whole thread has been very enlightening.I for one am not mad, disgruntled, oops grumpy.. I am just an old 3rd generation fisherman, who enjoys a good banter.

halibuthitman · Jan 6, 2011

aaah yes, in the olden days ( 1985 ) I used to go to a place called sportsmens surplus in spokane and " hover " in the fishing isles... poaching whatever knowledge I could eek out of a conversation... if I didn't care about walleye, or fish and game politics.... I moved to the next group of guys down the isle.... apparently some folks on here have not learned how to.... move down the isle.. Arguing amongst patriots has started a hundred revolutions for change in our nations history, and I gaurantee no man who ever said " can't we just agree to disagree' ever changed the world, and when they die... history never remembers their name-

viento · Jan 6, 2011

The John Day is teaming with Smallmouth Bass, Channel Catfish, has nice flyflishing for trout, with some larger salmonoids at times.
Fat deer roam everywhere, birdlife range from tiny to huge, with tasty ones in between, and there are beautiful wildflowers, vistas,
and fresh aromatic skies.

But the people who live there are all independantly wealthy, and prefer to be left alone. So a study was done
to prove that most people should not be allowed to use the river, in hopes of maintaining the natural beauty, thus securing privacy for the rich.
Outsiders are such a nuisance, and rich people need their space.

Fishermen and rafters can use the nice park at the mouth of the Deschutes. When gas prices get to high to travel to the
Deschutes, permits will be issued for Mosier creek. Then Tanner Creek. Then Blue Lake. Then the Travel Channel.
Enjoy it while it lasts.

Amberjack · Jan 6, 2011

halibuthitman said:
aaah yes, in the olden days ( 1985 ) I used to go to a place called sportsmens surplus in spokane and " hover " in the fishing isles... poaching whatever knowledge I could eek out of a conversation... if I didn't care about walleye, or fish and game politics.... I moved to the next group of guys down the isle.... apparently some folks on here have not learned how to.... move down the isle.. Arguing amongst patriots has started a hundred revolutions for change in our nations history, and I gaurantee no man who ever said " can't we just agree to disagree' ever changed the world, and when they die... history never remembers their name-

Move down the isle.. now thats one I havn't heard.. didn't expect to change the world.. and I am sure there are a quite a few would like to forget me..LOL.. you take care.
By the way your forum name Halibuthitman.. any special meaning?

halibuthitman · Jan 6, 2011

I have been an Alaskan longline Halibut fisherman for 23 yrs... and a crabber for 16... some folks would say im the reason that fish like the stunning slab in your avatar are getting harder and harder to catch... a mans gotta make a living... and I argue too much when Im wrong to succeed in the University...

Amberjack · Jan 6, 2011

halibuthitman said:
I have been an Alaskan longline Halibut fisherman for 23 yrs... and a crabber for 16... some folks would say im the reason that fish like the stunning slab in your avatar are getting harder and harder to catch... a mans gotta make a living... and I argue too much when Im wrong to succeed in the University...

.

Doubt you are the reason... I own a charter fishing operation in Newport. Our Captain's run commercial during the winter. Kind of gives them the edge. Me.. I don't run the boat, but rather work the deck, more hands on. Ohh and I argue with myself a lot.....

Horrible new John Day regulations

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